Dr. Walter E. Dunson, literacy expert and Board Certified Advocate of Special Education, joins Oceanview Therapy to discuss the science of reading, orthographic depth, and what parents can do to support their child’s reading development.
Alicia E.: Hello everyone, and welcome back to Oceanview Therapy’s Lighthouse Spotlight Series. I’m Alicia Earl…
Carmen S.: And I’m Carmen Schneider-Reese. Welcome back to Oceanview Therapy’s Lighthouse Spotlight Series. Sorry about that. Thank you again so much for being here with us. We’re so happy that you’re here.
Dr. Walter Dunson: Thank you for having me.
Alicia E.: July is such a fun time of year when families are traveling, spending time outdoors, making memories, and just enjoying that well-deserved summer break before school starts. While that’s important — of course, to enjoy that downtime — summer is also a wonderful opportunity to naturally build reading and language skills through everyday activities.
Carmen S.: Absolutely, whether it’s reading together at bedtime, whether you’re spotting words on signs during a road trip, or visiting your local library, talking about new experiences together. Literacy can be woven into the fun of summer without feeling like homework.
Alicia E.: So today we’re diving into a fascinating topic that every parent knows about: reading mastery, dyslexia, the English language, and something called orthographic depth.
Carmen S.: Joining us today is Dr. Walter Dunson, literacy expert and board certified advocate for special education services with Cardinal Reading Strategies, serving families throughout the United States, based in the Maryland and Washington, D.C. area.
Alicia E.: Good morning. Good morning. So, yes, let’s get started. For parents who may have never heard the term before, what exactly is orthographic depth in simple language?
Dr. Walter Dunson: Orthographic depth is the reliability of matching print with sound. Take the Spanish language, for example. Spanish has 24 sounds, but they have 27 graphemes. These are the letter combinations that create the 24 sounds. It’s not a very deep language — in fact, it’s categorized as shallow or transparent. Compare that with the English language, which is incredibly deep. We have 44 phonograms, but we have 1,120 graphemes that we use to create those 44 sounds, and that’s an incredibly deep language. And my contention is that schools are not getting to the depth of the English language, because we’re trying to do all of that by the third grade.
Let’s go back to Spanish. Spain has a very similar system to the United States, in that they have what is considered our pre-primer and primer — they call it education in fatigue — where they actually teach the phonics, the signs of the language, the sounds of the language, and they get all of that done by the end of third grade. Keeping in mind, they only have 24 sounds and 27 graphemes. We’re trying to — not that we’re patterning ourselves after the Spanish educational system — but it does mirror their construction, in that by the end of third grade, we consider English to be fully taught. And it’s not surprising that students are struggling with our language. In fact, I would be surprised if they weren’t struggling with the English language. We are now graduating 65% of our graduating seniors who cannot read beyond the level of basic.
Carmen S.: Wow. So you touched on this briefly, but why would you say so many students seem to read well, or have access to reading well, during kindergarten through third grade, but they begin struggling later in elementary, middle, or even high school?
Dr. Walter Dunson: Because of the way our reading instruction is patterned from kindergarten through third grade, they get approximately 100% Anglo-Saxon — this is the foundation of our language, where we get our vowels, our consonants, our vowel teams, syllable types, syllable division, and how to walk through a multi-syllabic word. But we stop at the end of third grade.
Then in fourth grade — and this is somewhat backwards of our system — we introduce Latin. Latin is 55% of our language, but it’s not part of the basic reading curriculum. Students are not taught about prefixes, they’re not taught about roots and affixes, and that’s our vocabulary — that’s the majority of our vocabulary. And then in seventh grade they’re introduced to Greek — Greek combining forms and Greek connectives. This is basically math and science. That’s where our vocabulary comes from in math and science — it’s basically Greek combining forms. So 66% of our language — 55% Latin, 11% Greek — is taught after, or introduced after, we stop teaching reading. That’s why they’re struggling.
Carmen S.: Wow.
Alicia E.: That really does make a lot of sense. So you often talk about the English code. What exactly is the English code?
Dr. Walter Dunson: The English code is essentially the signs and symbols that we use to represent the sounds in our language. Our language is a code — it’s a code for our spoken language, and the written form is the code for the spoken language. Bolger, Buffett, and Snyder say no language directly encodes spoken language, so it’s basically divining a code based upon the sounds in our language. And we have again 25% Anglo-Saxon, 55% Latinate, 11% Greek, and approximately 3% each of Spanish, Kemetic, Native American, Scandinavian, and French. All of that is put together, and we have a code based upon those constructions. And again, we’re not teaching those constructions to students beyond the third grade. That’s why they’re having trouble with the English code.
Alicia E.: That makes sense. So what would you suggest — is there maybe a structure or a scope that you would suggest for parents to introduce, or to ask about, with their child’s reading instruction?
Dr. Walter Dunson: Well, that’s a scary proposition, because what I’m about to say is that our reading instruction is completely incompatible with our orthographic depth — with the depth of our language. They stop in third grade, and even in Spain they move beyond third grade in teaching decoding. What I would encourage parents to do is to push for an extension of the reading program. In Louisiana, they don’t stop at third grade — they stop at second grade, by the way.
We don’t stop at third grade. We push until the ninth grade, where we actually pull in Latin, teach them how to deal with roots, prefixes, and recombining forms in seventh grade, pull them in and allow them to master these components of our language. And right now, that’s not happening.
Alicia E.: Okay, yes, I definitely agree. I’m actually going through training now — the morphology plus course — and it’s opening my eyes. I wish I would have known this when I was in school. It really does help.
Carmen S.: So Dr. Dunson, you’ve mentioned Anglo-Saxon words and Latin words. Can you talk a little more about what Anglo-Saxon words are, as well as what Latinate words are, and some examples?
Dr. Walter Dunson: Sure. The majority of our Anglo-Saxon comes to us through one-syllable words, possibly two-syllable words — words that have vowel teams. It’s incredibly rare for Latin word construction or Greek word construction to have vowel teams. There’s an “oi” in Latin, there’s an “au” in Greek with “naught,” but beyond that, anytime a vowel team presents itself it’s typically Anglo-Saxon word construction. And these are our sight words — very short words, short to the point: words like “get” and “go” and “she” and “it” and “was.” These are all Anglo-Saxon words, and we treat most of them as sight words, so that we recognize them when we see them and can spell them from memory. That’s the foundation of the fluency that we’re going to develop.
With the Latinate, you actually have meaning behind the construction. Take “get” — that’s Anglo-Saxon, we all know what “get” means. With Latin, we have words like “report” — we don’t necessarily know that “re” is a prefix that means “back” or that “port” means “to carry,” but when you report, you carry back. So it’s an extra step, and it’s a powerful step — an empowering step — because of the power of the vocabulary, and knowing what your pieces are and how to put them together to come up with a cogent thought process.
Alicia E.: Yes, I remember as part of it — breaking down the morphemes. Once you start learning the process, it does make you feel like, “oh wow, now I can see how they’re put together.” Adding an “s” or “es” on the end, you know that means more than one. “Est” means most. You start seeing those things and knowing what they mean. But we need to be taught the process. I wish I would have known it earlier — even in high school — instead of just picking it up later from reading. For those of us who don’t have difficulty with reading, you still need it. Think about those students who are already struggling, and then don’t have the process — no wonder the language comprehension isn’t there.
Dr. Walter Dunson: I’ll ask students — when I work with a student, I’ll teach them morphology, I’ll teach them their Latinate, I’ll teach them their Greek — and they’ll ask me, “Well, isn’t this cheating?” And I’ll say, “No, it’s working smarter, not working harder.” You look at a word and you automatically know what it means, because you see the prefix, you see the root, you see the connective, you see the suffix, and you walk away with meaning just by looking at the word.
Alicia E.: That is awesome. I’ve always been interested in literacy, but learning morphology — learning how to teach it — I’m learning myself. So I can only imagine what students feel like once they finally feel like they have a way to figure this out, and feel more confident. So if a parent suspects their child is falling behind in reading, what would you recommend they do first?
Dr. Walter Dunson: First, I would recommend they ask for a psycho-educational evaluation. Parents need to know that the school cannot tell them no — they have to provide that psycho-educational evaluation. Now, the school will most likely use their own psychiatrist or psychologist, and you’ll have to go along with their presentation. But if you want to go outside of the school, it’s at your own expense. Either way, they have to give you that psycho-educational evaluation, and that is a step in the right direction, because that eval will tell you exactly how your child is processing, how quickly they’re processing. It’ll tell you about their working memory, it’ll tell you about their verbal comprehension. It’s all inclusive, and it provides a great deal of information.
And from there, if the school identifies that there are issues, then you’re halfway to getting your son or daughter a 504 plan — but I would push for an IEP, because that 504 plan is not a legal document. The IEP is legally binding. If it’s in the IEP, they must provide it. If it’s in the 504 plan, maybe they provide it, maybe they don’t.
Alicia E.: Thank you for making sure to differentiate between a 504 and an IEP. Some parents might not understand that language.
Carmen S.: Absolutely. So Dr. Dunson, what questions would you suggest that parents ask schools — thinking about reading curriculum and reading instruction, thinking about parent-teacher conferences — what are some questions that parents might ask teachers beyond “how is my child doing?”
Dr. Walter Dunson: I would ask about the reading methodology. What are you using to teach the science of reading? And here’s the first question: Are you teaching the science of reading? You’ll find that a lot of schools are not, and they may provide lip service — “We’re doing this, we’re following these guidelines” — and they really aren’t. So I would ask for proof that they are following the science of reading.
Reid Lyon, in 1999 or 2000 — I met Reid Lyon when I was in Houston. I was on the board of IDA in Houston, and he came and gave a presentation. It was quite exciting to hear him speak because he was so passionate. And when I found out that he was involved with the National Reading Panel, I did read some of it — and I found that it was very passionate and very direct, outlining what we need to do to teach reading. And when it was presented, crickets. That’s all you heard. Here we are in 2026 — 26 years after this report was presented — and what do we hear? Crickets. The needle has not moved. But we continuously have students who cannot read beyond the basic level, and those who are at the basic level can’t finish a reading passage on time, they can’t answer basic questions about the subject of the passage, there are high amounts of errors and mistakes, and when they run across a multi-syllabic word, they’re going to come up with a word that starts with that first syllable — so instead of “recovery,” they might say “reason” and keep right on going, because they saw the “re” and they’re done, they’re going to keep moving on.
Alicia E.: Very eye-opening.
Carmen S.: Absolutely. So you’re speaking a little bit about schools and what schools could do differently. If you could redesign reading instruction in America — and I know this is a big question — what would be your top three recommendations?
Dr. Walter Dunson: Wow. Top three. We’ve actually tried to do this here in Maryland.
The first thing I would recommend is that all colleges and universities unite and follow one unified curriculum to teach reading. We tried to get everyone together — we put a Senate bill forth, and the Senate bill died in committee — where we tried to get all of the professors to teach from one curriculum. Because the way it sits now, you learn from Dr. Johnny over here and he has his own perspective on what reading is, and Dr. Sylvania over here has her own perspective, and you’re sending these people out to teach reading with no unification. Unifying the curriculum, I think, would be first and foremost, with no deviation. You don’t have an option. It’s difficult dealing with PhDs, because they think they know everything — and I’m going to get attacked for that too — but we unify the curriculum.
Second, I think all reading should take place from pre-primer or kindergarten through the ninth grade. That gives them time to pull in the Anglo-Saxon, time to pull in the Latin, time to pull in the Greek, and then you get two years to manipulate all of them — to understand the process of reading — and no one is left behind. And when I say that, I think back to No Child Left Behind, and what a farce it was. But I’m talking about the simple fact that everyone learns to read the English language. We learn the depth of the orthography — all 1,120 graphemes to produce our language. We learn all of them.
Third — and this is a topic near and dear to my heart — people talk about dyslexia a lot, and right now it’s being used as a rubber stamp. Stanislaus Dehaene of the College of France says it’s not a rubber stamp. Seidenberg says that just because a child is struggling with reading does not mean they’re dyslexic. Uri of Fordham University said the exact same thing. Lewis and Moses note we don’t know about their language background. Dr. Marianne Wolf says we don’t know if they received proper training. So just to flatly stamp them with the label of dyslexia is doing them a disservice.
Alicia E.: Yes, I can see that. Because how can you really know? First of all, the assessment is really important, but then at the same time — if there’s been no proper instruction — how can you say it’s a disorder when it could possibly be the exposure? I wasn’t taught this when I was in school. I remember it being really pretty quick, and then — what is the phrase they use in third grade? You go from learning to read to reading to learn. But you still need to learn how to read some of those words. So I definitely agree with that.
So this is more so for teachers — if there are teachers listening, or parents who are also teachers. How do you think upper elementary and middle school teachers could continue supporting reading development, even if they aren’t reading specialists or don’t have the time to explicitly teach reading?
Dr. Walter Dunson: Oh, that’s the tough one. Most teachers that I’ve encountered at conferences, they’ll ask me, “Well, how do I teach it if they won’t let me — if the school system won’t allow me to do these things?” And I said, lock your door and do what’s best for the students. Of course, that’s not going to fly politically, but that’s what I believe, because it’s too easy to blame the teachers.
I know that teachers want to do right by their students. Who’s going to do a job that pays so poorly and carries so much grief if you don’t have it in your heart to do? I believe that teachers have it in their hearts to do what’s right. They just aren’t familiar with what the right thing is — some of them. And some of them know the right thing, but the school systems will not allow it.
Carmen S.: We’ll leave that one for episode two. Because that really is an important question. Teachers are already fighting for their lunch times and their planning times, really. So, before we close, Alicia are there any other questions that you wanted to ask?
Alicia E.: One more — if parents remember only one message from today’s conversation, what would you want that message to be?
Dr. Walter Dunson: You want me to be honest, right?
Alicia E: Yeah!
Carmen S: Absolutely, absolutely.
Dr. Walter Dunson: Learn to do it yourself. Teach reading yourself. Teach your own child how to read, because clearly the schools know what the problems are, and they’re not fixing it. So, every year we have 24 million students who are struggling to read because no one’s teaching the science of reading, and that population is growing, year after year. And I’m sorry, I know this may not be what you want to hear, but parents are going to have to do it themselves.
Carmen S.: That’s important, for parents to know that. That no one is coming in to really save the day, sometimes we have to save ourselves. So thank you, Dr. Dunson. This conversation was exhilarating, I wish we had some more time to tackle some more of these topics! But, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and your passion with us today, because this has been so insightful. Even though we touched the surface on some things I wish we really could have gone much deeper, but I think parents will walk away, hopefully, from this conversation feeling empowered, having a better understanding of the reality of where we are with reading with our children, and the status of reading in our country, and how they can support their children as they are learning how to read. And that learning how to read doesn’t stop, I think that’s the best way, even as adults we’re still learning words and pronunciations, so thank you again for being here with us today.
Dr. Walter Dunson: My pleasure.
Alicia E.: Yes, so if you’d like to learn more about Dr. Dunson’s incredible work that’s being done through Cardinal Reading Strategies, we’ll include links to his website and resources, and if you’ve enjoyed today’s conversation, don’t forget to subscribe to Oceanview Therapy’s Lighthouse Spotlight Series where each month we feature experts in literacy, communication, autism, psychology and child development to bring free practical resources directly to parents, families, and professionals.
Carmen S.: So thank you again everyone for joining us, we hope you’re having a wonderful summer, making lots of memories, and maybe even discovering a few new books along the way. So we’ll see you at our next episode for another Lighthouse Spotlight. Thank you!
